For those who don't want the somewhat distracting chatter from the #peanut-gallery channel, here's the interview with those bits omitted. The full transcript is available here. Enjoy!
lpsmith asks, "OK, shall we begin?"
BoingBall says, "Why not."
Sargent exclaims, "Wait, wait, I'm still studying! I'm not ready for a quiz!"
Jota asks (of Sargent), "Where were you on the night of Jan 23, 1947?"
Sargent says, "Oh, sorry. Channeled one of my students for a moment."
lpsmith says (to Sarge), "You had a week's extension. No excuses."
lpsmith says, "OK, a few ground rules."
Sargent says (to lpsmith), "Wait, I thought this was about "Losing Your Grip", not "Common Ground""
lpsmith says, "First, this isn't exactly like the old Saudade interviews, which were cut-n-paste fests."
lpsmith says, "Heh."
lpsmith says, "These are more 'live'--though we've chatted about general topics."
Jota asks, "No festing here?"
BoingBall asks, "What about festering?"
lpsmith says, "Also, I'd like the format to be more 'talk-show' like--if you have a question, raise your hand, and I'll call on you--even during the interview."
Jota asks, "Can we start fights onstage?"
Doe says (to Jota), "hehehe"
lpsmith says (to Jota), "I have in my notes "Wait here for talk show joke.""
lpsmith says, "If you have chatty/snarky things to say, use #peanut-gallery, though."
BoingBall exclaims (at Jota), "You didn't raise your hand!"
Ryan says, "#sargent-sux He's not in this channel, though."
lpsmith says, "I've muted #peanut-gallery, so if discussion there is relevant to the interview bit, raise your hand and bring it over."
lpsmith says, "If you're talking and have something more to say, append your statement with elipses (...)."
Sargent asks (of lpsmith), "A side note: does that apply to me, or would you rather I say END when I'm done?"
lpsmith asks, "Anyone want to make a 'ground rules' type sign for latecomers?"
lpsmith says (to Sarge), "Pick one, but let me know which you pick ;-)"
Jota nods, "Not a bad idea."
lpsmith says (to Jota), "Thanks."
Sargent says, "I'll go with saying END when I'm done, since I'll probably forget ellipses."
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith exclaims, "OK, here we go!"
lpsmith and Sargent (aka Stephen Granade) step over to the dias. A spotlight illuminates them.
Sargent blinks in the sudden glare.
lpsmith says, "Er, one more thing: Here There Be Spoilers for Grip. You have been warned."
lpsmith asks (of Sarge), "OK, let's start by telling us a bit about yourself. You're a graduate student, right?"
Sargent says, "Yes. I'm in the physics graduate program at Duke, and have been since 1995."
Sargent says, "If I'm lucky, I'll graduate sometime in the next year or so with a Ph.D. in physics."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So you wrote Grip while at Duke?"
Sargent says, "Yes and no."
Sargent says, "The first post I made to rec.arts.int-fiction which referred to Losing Your Grip, albeit indirectly, was in 1993."
Sargent says, "(references available upon request)"
Sargent says, "At that time, Kevin Wilson of Once and Future/Avalon fame was pushing his planned IF company, Vertigo Software."
Sargent says, "I talked to him about having Vertigo do something with Losing Your Grip. He was excited about it."
Sargent says, "We e-mailed back and forth, discussing the game. And then the whole thing fell through."
Sargent says, "I got far enough to plan out the first fit and set the overall structure of the game, but nothing more than that."
lpsmith nods.
Sargent says, "The first year of physics graduate school, as with a lot of other graduate programs, is time-intensive. I was working around 100 hours a week, with no time for IF."
Sargent says, "The second year, however, I had a lot more free time. So I re-started work on Grip."
Sargent says, "I mapped out the rest of Grip over six months, then spent a year coding and beta-testing."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Was the final form of the game much different than you had envisioned it in '94?"
Sargent says, "In parts. Originally I was going to have a *lot* more chapters (which weren't fits at the time)."
Sargent says, "And the player's actions were going to have a significant impact on the flow of the story."
Sargent says, "The exponential combinations of objects quickly squelched that."
lpsmith nods.
Sargent says, "The other big difference was that the story I was telling evolved a lot between when I started and when I finished designing."
Sargent says, "By the end I found a completely different story had emerged, one which I didn't realize I was telling at first."
Sargent says, "But the overall structure of reality vs interior life was there from the beginning."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So you always had the idea of the chapter/interlude motif?"
Sargent says, "Yes. I wanted to contrast the exterior events going on around the character with the interior landscape, and I wanted the line between the two to become blurred over time."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "In the final game, the 'reality' bits were all relatively short. Did you ever have bigger plans for those scenes?"
Sargent says, "I did at first, but I found they were uninteresting compared to what was going on inside. Originally the player was going to leave the clinic, go back to a "normal" life, but keep having these flashbacks."
lpsmith nods.
Sargent says, "That structure was too sprawling, though, and I kept losing focus. So I trimmed it back, so as not to steal attention from what I thought was important about the story."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "In broad strokes (and if you don't mind giving too much away), what *was* the story you found yourself telling? And what did you think it was originally?"
Sargent says, "I don't want to say What It All Means -- story by authorial fiat isn't nearly as interesting to me as hearing what people come up with on their own."
lpsmith says, "Naturally."
Sargent says, "But originally I thought the story I was telling was, "Person who has lead the unexplored life is forced to review the past.""
Sargent says, "And the more I worked on it, and the more I learned about Terry, the more I realized that the family relationships, and relationships in general, were what were underpinning the story."
lpsmith nods.
Sargent says, "That's not to say that it's all about relationships. You can play through Grip and view it as a skewed story about puzzles. That's certainly fine by me."
lpsmith grins.
Sargent says, "And the relationship imagery is not as pervasive as in, say, So Far."
Sargent says, "But the relationship between the father and Terry, between Terry and Terry's mind, etc. etc., is what drove the story for me."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Would you say that the relationship motif is completely abset from Fit 4?"
Sargent says, "No."
Sargent says, "And that's probably going to be my most controversial answer. :)"
lpsmith grins.
Sargent says, "The focus in that fit is puzzles, but in my mind there were links to the relationship motif."
Sargent says, "Clearly I could have made those links more obvious. Had I to do it over, I think I would tweak that fit somewhat, for that reason and for others."
Sargent says, "But even as it stands, Fit 4 involves relationships to a certain degree."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "In overall themes, or in specific puzzles? Or both?"
Sargent says, "In overall themes more than in specific puzzles. The math-oriented fit especially has abstract puzzles which don't tie into the plot, per se."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith asks, "Now, Losing Your Grip was not your first work of IF. What would you say you had learned from your previous games?"
Sargent says, "Don't kill the player with laser beams or exploding boats."
lpsmith laughs.
Doe says, "hehe"
Sargent says, "My first publically released game, "Waystation," was very much the work of someone who said, "Hey, I like text adventures. I'll write one!""
Sargent says, "I put very little thought into design aspects."
Sargent says, ""Undertow" involved a lot more thought. I wanted to write a locked-room mystery, but didn't want to set it in a room. So it ended up on a boat, which is larger but still "locked"."
Sargent says, "But I didn't beta-test it. I was entering it in the 1995 competition, and I thought you weren't supposed to give it to beta-testers."
lpsmith says, "Whoops ;-)"
Sargent says, "The result was a very bug-ridden game. Very, very bug-ridden game."
Sargent says, "Mike Kinyon, the Platonic ideal of a beta-tester, sent me a ten-page list of bugs after voting closed that year. Whoops, heh heh."
lpsmith says, "Wow."
Sargent says, "I also learned that you're going to make design decisions which people don't like."
Sargent says, "For instance, Gareth Rees, in his review of Undertow, expressed frustration that I didn't let you pick up the gun that one of the characters left lying around."
Sargent says, "I had a very good reason for doing that -- namely, time constraints -- but it did annoy a lot of people."
Sargent says, "It really made me think about the misdirection involved in IF. I'm working on an essay about that for r.a.i-f, so look for more from me on this subject."
Sargent says, "END"
Doe raises hand.
lpsmith asks, "Time constraints as in time you had to write the game?"
Sargent says, "Yes. I decided to enter the competition about two months before the deadline, and that summer I was newly married and working at NASA before coming to Duke. So the game was very very rushed."
Sargent says, "And I spent a lot of time learning about yachts, time which I probably should have spent coding and debugging."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "We have a question from our studio audience. Doe?"
Sargent listens intently.
Doe asks, "Since you've been writing IF for awhile, what is the thing that has most changed about HOW you write IF now? And do you find it easier now?"
Sargent says, "What's most changed is that I think more about what I'm doing."
HairBrain flails an appendage.
Sargent says, "Part of that is because of my job with About.com. I write an article a week, and I get bored writing just game reviews and previews. So I tend to wander off into random byways of IF theory."
Sargent says, "After three years of that, I've found myself much more aware of what effect I'm likely to have if I make a certain design decision."
Sargent says, "Is it easier? Well, the coding aspect is. I've been working with TADS since 1992, and I know the language pretty well."
Sargent says, "However, I keep wanting to try new things with my games, so as it gets easier, I make it harder on myself."
Sargent says, "Have I made a puzzle game before? Well, let's try graphics, then. Hey, I've never tried a pure story game -- I think I'll make one."
Sargent says, "And that makes things harder. Character flaw or good idea? You be the judge."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Now, your About job was post-Grip, right?"
Sargent says, "They overlapped slightly. I started work with About in the spring of 1997, at which point Grip was being beta-tested. I wanted to release Grip in mid-1997, but my beta-testers could only slog through the game so fast, and the competition distracted everyone. So I ended up releasing Grip in January of 1998."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith takes the microphone over to another section of the bar, where HairBrain has a question.
HairBrain asks (of Sarge), "What sort of misdirection were you referring to way back there about three screens ago?"
lpsmith grins.
Sargent asks, "If I deny I said anything, can I get away with not answering?"
lpsmith laughs.
Sargent exclaims, "Alternatively, look over there! A three-headed monkey!"
BoingBall says, "Heh."
Sargent says, "Anyway. When you get down to it, interactive fiction is a very limiting medium."
Sargent says, "You get this > prompt which says, in effect, "Type anything you want and tell me what to do. I'll understand.""
HairBrain asks, "How to lead the player, then?"
Sargent says, "Right."
Sargent says, "Because that prompt is lying."
Sargent says, "The game only understands a small subset of commands, and then only if they fit a certain syntax."
Sargent says, "The trick is to train players to follow that convention. When you follow the convention, you don't feel as constrained."
Sargent says, "As a designer, I don't want you poking around the edges of the game, where the story and simulation break down."
Sargent says, "So I have to distract you. In that respect, IF is a lot like magic. If you look too closely, you can see the wires."
Sargent says, "While in some games seeing the wires is the whole point, most of the time you don't want that to happen."
Sargent says, "That's what I meant by misdirection. I want you to look where I want you to look, so you'll have the experience I was planning for."
Sargent says, "END"
inky raises a hand.
lpsmith says, "I've said things like that before--you want to limit the player's expectations, and then fully realize those expectations."
Sargent says, "I fully agree with that. (END)"
lpsmith asks (of inky), "Yes?"
inky asks, "since the > prompt promises much more than it can deliver, would you say there's a better IF interface possible?"
Gunther raises inky's hand.
Sargent says, "Mmm, I'm not sure I'd say "better". It's more a question of different interfaces for different purposes."
Sargent says, "You can remove the ambiguity completely by utilizing command menus. As in LucasArts games, have the player construct a command using objects and commands from a menu."
Sargent says, "That delivers exactly what it promises, but means you can't hide actions you want the player to take. You have to design for that."
lpsmith says (to Sarge), "Or, rather, hide the actions you want the players to discover for themselves."
Sargent says (to lpsmith), "Right."
Sargent says, "I think a menu-style interface hasn't caught on in IF because people just slap those menus on a standard piece of IF."
Sargent says, "You have to design to your interface. If you're going to use menus, write a game which works *with* that interface."
Sargent says, "Note that I'm not advocating that you hide commands. "Guess the verb" is a Bad Thing."
Sargent says, "But there are advantages to both approaches. Your game needs to use those strengths while minimizing the weaknesses of the interface."
Sargent says, "Beyond that, I'm not sure. The > prompt works well for us, albeit with a steep learning curve."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Getting back to Grip: Tell us a bit about your concept of the PC. What did you want to define, and what did you want to leave it up to the player to define?"
Sargent says, "I've called Terry the most sharply drawn generic adventurer ever."
Sargent says, "Certain things about Terry had to be well-defined."
Sargent says, "After all, the game dealt so much with Terry's past. I couldn't leave Terry a cipher."
lpsmith nods.
Sargent says, "At the same time, when I started this project in 1993, it wasn't clear how well people would like a game with a defined PC."
Sargent asks, "Would people be willing to role-play to the extent required?"
Sargent says, "I hedged my bets. While we know Terry is a smoker, has trouble committing to things, needs help quitting smoking, the rest of Terry's life is left up to the player."
Sargent says, "I went back and forth while working on Grip. At times I would add a lot of definition to Terry's life, then go back and remove it."
Sargent says, "I wanted players to understand Terry's motivations, but this was a game about exploration. It wouldn't work if you knew what Terry has to discover throughout the game."
Sargent asks, "So I tried to have you discover things along with Terry, and do so without facing the dreaded amnesia problem of IF: how do you tell the player what the character should, by all rights, already know?"
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So if you were to start writing the same game today, might you define Terry more explicitly, given the grown appreciation for well-defined PC's?"
Sargent says, "Probably not. I'd be less concerned about the issue, but I still would want players of all backgrounds to identify with Terry."
Sargent says, "And I'd still want players to discover Terry's life along with Terry."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So you think that it's easier to identify with a less-defined protagonist?"
Sargent says, "Each time you define an aspect of the protagonist, you risk alienating players."
Sargent says, ""I'd *never* play a mass murderer!" people say."
Sargent says, "To a lesser extent, you run that risk with each decision you make."
Sargent says, "I wouldn't say it's easier to identify with a less-defined protagonist, since at some point you end up with a character with *no* identity. Players tend to view a protagonist like that as an avatar, not a character."
Sargent says, "They play the game *through* the protagonist, not as the protagonist."
Sargent says, "So I think you have to decide what effect you want. If you need a defined protagonist, hey, go for it. You can make all sorts of normally-nasty people be sympathetic. Authors have been doing it for years."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "People seemed to like Varicella ;-) Does that bely your statement, or do you see something else at work there? Or do you think Adam *did* alienate players with his choices about the protagonist?"
Gunther says, "he certainly alienated me."
Gunther says, "sorry"
lpsmith says (to Gunther), "No, 'sokay"
Sargent says, "I think players were alienated by Primo."
PollBoy hollers, "lpsmith has changed the poll! You spend as much time 'changing the poll' as the next girl, but this really isn't the time."
Sargent says, "You don't have to have sympathy with characters. The recent movie 'Payback' is a good example to my mind -- I didn't like Mel Gibson's character, but yet I enjoyed the movie."
Sargent says, "In part that was because both "Payback" and "Varicella" use the same trick: make the other characters around the protagonist even more evil."
Sargent says, "And Adam's writing is such that Primo can be a sympathetic character."
Sargent says, "I don't think this is a counter-example to my claim; I think it's validation that you can flaunt my semi-rule by using the same kind of tricks authors of traditional fiction use."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Would you say that there's more at stake with a protagonist of IF than a protagonist of regular fiction?"
lpsmith asks, "i.e. A reader can accept more differences of the protagonist than a 'player'?"
Sargent says, "For many people, yes."
Sargent says, "There are a lot of IF players who won't play if they don't like what's going on."
Sargent says, "You can use that to good effect. There's a moment in Trinity I'm thinking of, but I'll hold back to avoid spoilers."
lpsmith says, "Hmmm."
lpsmith says, "Let's go to #spoilers, then."
Sargent asks, "Everyone on #spoilers who wants to hear this?"
Doe says, "yeah, I don't want to be there"
Sargent says, "'@joinc spoilers' if not."
Jota says, "Everyone unidle, at least."
lpsmith says, "It'll be in the transcript for idlers."
[spoilers] Sargent says, "I think I can go ahead now."
[spoilers] Sargent says, "I'm thinking of the scene with the skink."
[spoilers] Sargent says, "You're forced to ask yourself, is the skink's life worth less than your goal."
[spoilers] Sargent asks, "Can you in good conscience kill this innocent creature to save the world?"
[spoilers] Sargent says, "I know Infocom got a number of letters from people who just wouldn't do it. They quit the game and stopped playing it rather than continue at that price."
[spoilers] Sargent says, "That's a powerful decision, and it's not one you find in traditional fiction. I can keep reading and not take responsibility for what's going on."
Lionheart says, "It's like they always say, you can't to save the world without pushing a few old ladies down some stairs..."
[spoilers] Sargent says, "Unless someone has comments on my example, we can go off channel now."
Lionheart says, "To probably misquote another game."
lpsmith says, "OK, we're back."
Sargent says, "To sum up for those of you who didn't go to #spoilers: IF can force you to make a hard choice, and you take responsibility for that decision."
Sargent says, "You can't sit back and passively accept what's going on. (END)"
lpsmith goes out into the audience again. "Gunther, I believe you had a question?"
Gunther says, "yeah"
Gunther asks, "The LYG feelies are exceptionally well done. How long did they take you and how much of the work was done by Misty?"
Sargent says, "The only credit I can take for the feelies is saying, 'Um, er, I guess I want a manual. And a bit of newspaper would be nice.'"
Sargent says, "Misty, for those of you who don't know, is my wife. She's a graphics designer by training."
Sargent says, "We spent two weeks off-and-on figuring out what we could do with the little amount of money we had to spend."
lpsmith asks (of Sarge), "When was this?"
Sargent says, "This was the summer of 1997."
Gunther says, "YM '69"
Sargent laughs.
Sargent says, "She was working at Kinko's at the time, so we got an employee discount on materials and printing. That's really the only way we could afford to do what we did."
Gunther asks, "How much did you spend, and did you break even (if you want to anser that, that is)?"
Gunther says, "answer, even"
Sargent says, "I put together the text of the manual and she typeset it. She came up with the idea of a two-color cover on cardstock."
Sargent says, "And figured out how to make the newspaper."
lpsmith says (to Gunther), "Wait for END, remember."
Sargent says, "She also did some research on what drug company literature looked for, for the brochure that's included."
Sargent says, "It ended up costing about $3 or $4 per package, which amazed me. I thought it'd be a lot more."
Sargent says, "So the registration fee covered that and shipping easily, and left enough for us to go out to eat a couple of times."
Sargent says, "END"
Gunther says, "thanks"
Sargent says, "You bet."
Sargent says, "As a side note: she no longer works at Kinko's, so it'd cost a lot more for us to do that now. :)"
lpsmith asks, "OK, let's talk a bit about the design of Grip. You have your basic idea of chapters and interludes, and some idea of what the story is going to be about. How did the puzzles come in? Part and parcel of the story, or separately?"
Sargent says, "Yes."
(From lpsmith) Sargent says, "END."
Sargent laughs.
Sargent asks, "Actually, in that case, wouldn't I need to say 'It's deliberate'?"
lpsmith chuckles.
Sargent says, "A lot of the puzzles grew out of the story. I'm especially proud of the third fit's puzzles. I think they flow from the story very well."
Sargent says, "And I think I did a good job of making the puzzles in the first interlude fit in the story. Magnus Olsson, who was one of my beta-testers, called the interlude his idea of what nearly-puzzleless IF should be like."
Sargent says, "Then there's the math side of Fit 4...."
lpsmith says, "Heh."
Sargent says, "I was sitting in a colloquium one day my first year at Duke. The speaker was talking about visualizing four dimensions."
Sargent says, "And I suddenly thought, hey, a hypercube. I bet you could make a nice puzzle out of that."
Sargent says, "I coded up the granite cube puzzle and left it sitting on my hard drive."
Sargent says, "When I started putting together Fit 4, about a year later, I realized it would fit with what I was trying to do."
lpsmith says, "(side note: The granite cube puzzle was nominated for 'best puzzle' at the '98 XYZZYies.)"
Sargent says, "The matruska doll puzzle was another example. A friend of mine actually came up with that years ago. When I found myself doing the other side of Fit 4, I realized it would fit with what I was wanting to do."
Sargent says, "So those puzzles existed separate from the story, really."
Sargent says, "END"
inky raises his hand.
lpsmith asks, "I know you answered on raif already, but what *was* the idea behind that doll puzzle?"
Thrax says, "Howdy. Sorry I'm late."
Sargent says (to inky), "I'll answer lps's question quick."
Sargent says, "One of the themes of Fit 4 is putting yourself back together."
Sargent says, "And that's what the dolls were about."
Sargent says, "You begin that puzzle with each copy of you separate, and each doll separate as well."
Sargent says, "You have to unthread the doll copies from the copies of yourself and put them back together: only doll copies inside of doll copies, and each copy of yourself holding the smaller copies."
Sargent asks, "Does that make things any clearer?"
lpsmith says, "Heh. Maybe ;-)"
lpsmith asks, "And someone came up with this idea independently?"
Sargent grins.
Sargent says, "You're taking two interleaved things and separating them."
Sargent says, "Yes, Nick came up with this on his own."
Thrax says, "Got a question, but I'll run a long recap first."
Sargent says, "We both worked on an LPMUD (no relation to you, lps) together, and he also wanted to implement a combat system based on rock-scissors-paper. He was one clever fellow."
lpsmith asks, "Complete with copies of yourself and stuff?"
Sargent says, "Yes, complete with copies of yourself. I can take no credit for that puzzle."
Sargent says, "(and say so in the credits section)"
lpsmith says, "Wow."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "We have another studio-audience question: Inky?"
inky asks, "why the branches in fits 2 and 4?"
Sargent says, "I'd been toying with the idea of games that branched out and either kept spreading or came back together ever since I discovered r.a.i-f in '91 or '92."
Sargent says, "Grip seemed like a good place to try it."
Sargent says, "I tried two separate approaches in Grip. In Fit 2, the player isn't necessarily supposed to know there are two different branches."
Sargent says, "Whichever branch the player sees, that's the story that player experiences."
Sargent says, "Fit 4's branching is supposed to be obvious. You're supposed to realize that your answers to Jefrey & Marie's questions determine where you go."
Sargent says, "So one of the branchings is hidden; the other, obvious."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "What was the goal of the Fit 2's branching? Or was it simply an experiment?"
Sargent says, "It was me having my cake and saving it for later, too."
Sargent says, "Originally there was just the hospital scene."
Sargent says, "But the more I worked on it, the more I realized I wanted to tell."
Sargent says, "The hospital fit kept getting bigger and bigger, with more and more detail."
Sargent says, "The only way I could keep all that material was to have the hospital fit fission into two fits."
Sargent says, "There's a lot of overlap between the two, but definite differences. You learn different things about Terry depending on which way you go."
Sargent says, "It's not 'just' an experiment in that I didn't do it just because it'd be neat. That was part of my motivation, but far from the overriding one."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So what was the overriding motivation, then?"
Thrax says (to Sargent), "Can you say more about the dark sphere, specifically its role in the plot? One thing that puzzled me was that one fit 4 disposed of it, but the other didn't."
lpsmith says (to Thrax), "Er, wait a bit."
Sargent says, "As I said, I wanted to keep all the nifty plot points I'd been cramming into the hospital fit. I wanted all that information in the game, but not necessarily jammed down the player's throat."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith says (to Thrax), "If you raise you're hand, I'll call on you."
Sargent exclaims, "It's like grade school!"
Thrax says (to lps), "Okay--sorry."
Thrax raises his hand.
lpsmith says (to Thrax), "'sokay."
lpsmith asks (of Sarge), "Hence the 'hiddenness' of it?"
Sargent says, "Yes."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So what was your vision of a typical player's reaction to that split?"
Sargent says, "Many people didn't see the split."
Sargent says, "And then they read r.g.i-f and said, 'Hey! What wheelchair-bound woman are you talking about?'"
Sargent says, "Some people thought it was an interesting choice. Andrew Plotkin said (both privately to me and publicly) he wouldn't have the stamina to make parts of the game that players probably wouldn't see."
lpsmith chuckles.
Sargent says, "Others were annoyed. They felt that they had a right to see all of the game, regardless."
Sargent says, "I can't say that the latter reaction is wrong. I can say that, while sympathetic to it, that doesn't change my decision."
Sargent says, "Would I do it again? Sure."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So was part of your vision was them learning more from the community's response?"
Sargent says, "Yes. I knew people would ask for hints and realize they were talking at cross-purposes."
lpsmith says, "Huh."
Sargent says, "The gleeful little troublemaker in me jumped up and down, happy with this thought."
Sargent says, "And it let me have my decision both ways. Those who were part of the r.*.i-f community would find out there was more to Fit 2 than originally met the eye."
Sargent says, "At the same time, Grip wasn't written solely for that community. A lot of people who played the game and wrote me didn't read the newsgroups."
Jarb has left.
Sargent says, "Did those people have a more 'pure' experience? Perhaps. But I'm not unhappy with people having either experience."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith says, "Interesting."
Doe raises her hand.
lpsmith asks, "Let's go back to Thrax's question (you next, Doe). Thrax?"
Sargent says (to Thrax), "You'll probably need to repeat your question. It's been a while. :)"
Thrax says (to Sargent), "Tell us more about the dark sphere--what was its role in the plot? I was confused by one fit 4 disposing of it and the other not."
Sargent says, "That's due to the first fit being written before the later ones."
Sargent says, "Originally the dark sphere was only a symbol."
Dilbon says, "Um."
Gunther blinks.
Dilbon asks, "Is this ifMUD?"
Dilbon says, "No."
BoingBall says (to Dilbon), "daveMUD. Although I'm not happy about it."
Dilbon says, "Oh. Right."
Sargent says, "And then, in Fit 4, I painted myself into a corner."
Dilbon asks, "When did the location desc change to bnar and grill?"
Sargent says, "The dark sphere is me dropping back five and punting."
lpsmith says, "#peanut-gallery, people."
Gunther says (to dilbon), "shh."
Gunther asks (of sargent), "explain please, for us non-americans?"
Sargent says, "I decided to use an object that was already in the game rather than trying to shoehorn in something which would work with the monkey puzzle."
Sargent says (to Gunther), "I had to regroup because I'd gotten myself in a corner, that's all."
Sargent says (to Gunther), "So I sort of avoided the problem by co-opting the dark sphere to my nefarious purposes."
Sargent says, "I'd rather not say what the dark sphere is symbolically, though."
Thrax says (to Sargent), "Gotcha."
Sargent says, "I will say that's not one of my better design decisions in Grip. :)"
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "You had the monkey puzzle idea before you had the solution?"
Sargent says, "Yes."
Sargent says, "And before someone asks, this predated my time on ifMUD. At that time I didn't know that monkeys would be intrinsically funny."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "So the sphere was *not* supposed to be just 'evil', but you're afraid the monkey puzzle made it seem that way?"
lpsmith laughs.
Gunther raises hand.
Sargent says, "I don't want to answer that question, since it gets into what the dark sphere is, or what it symbolizes."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith says, "Heh."
Sargent says, "(and that wasn't meant to be snarky, by the way.)"
lpsmith says, "We have a couple audience questions. Doe, if you wouldn't mind waiting, Gunther has another question about the sphere."
Doe says (to lpsmith), "okay"
lpsmith says, "Thanks."
Gunther says, "Is there any specific reason why you don't want to tell? Because I'd really like to know now ;-)"
Sargent says, "Heh."
Sargent says, "In part because I'm ornery. In part because anything I say gets entered into the Canon of Losing Your Grip."
lpsmith says, "And blasted at the enemy."
Sargent says, "I'm very consious of the effect my words can have on how people view my game."
Sargent laughs.
Gunther says, "whisper it, then :)"
Sargent says, "Sorry, no exceptions. :)"
lpsmith laughs.
Thrax raises his hand.
Sargent says, "I think one of Grip's strengths is that it can be taken as a straight story, or as a story fraught with symbolism and deeper meaning."
(From Gunther) Thrax says, "Pretty please with sugar topping?"
Sargent says, "I've actually learned a lot about my game from people's discussions. For example, the recent discussions on r.g.i-f between Thrax and lpsmith made me view one part of the game in a new light."
Sargent says, "If I say 'This is what this part of the game means,' I lose that opportunity."
Sargent says, "That's a higher price than I want to pay for people's certainty."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Interesting. What bit, if you don't mind me asking?"
lpsmith says, "(of our discussion)"
Sargent says, "The discussion about Fit 1 and the spheres, in particular."
Sargent says, "And who Frankie is."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith asks, "OK, Another couple questions from the audience. Doe?"
Doe says, "Okay, this question comes from Luc French who is also online in AOL. Since you didn't want to answer about the dark sphere, you probably won't want to answer this."
Sargent laughs.
Doe asks, "Does the head symbolize the player's (protagonist's) conscience?"
Sargent says, "If only everyone took that approach, this interview would take a lot less time. :)"
lpsmith laughs.
Doe says, "hehe"
Sargent says, "I won't answer that directly, but I will say lpsmith hit upon a possible answer in his latest discussion."
lpsmith grins.
Doe says (to Sargent), "Good enough."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith says, "My interpretation is that >X CONSCIENCE gives a pretty good clue ;-)"
lpsmith asks, "OK, another audience question. Thrax?"
Thrax asks (of Sargent), "On my first time through the game, I didn't deal with the sludge. Later, I figured it out. As far as I can tell, though, the plot turned out the same way. Was there a reason, analytically, for not changing the plot based on that?"
Thrax asks (of Sargent), "Or did I miss something?"
Sargent says, "Originally not dealing with the sludge, or not dealing with the faeries, was going to have a clear difference in the ending."
Sargent says, "But I began to be afraid that people would *really* dislike that. 'You mean I can't win just because I didn't do that puzzle at the start?'"
Sargent says, "(And yes, I'm well aware that Grip has a number of puzzles which close off the game without warning. I'm inconsistent like that. :)"
lpsmith asks, "This gets back to your original design for the game, right?"
Sargent says (to lpsmith), "Yes."
Sargent says, "I couldn't find a good way to have the sludge puzzle or faeries puzzle *directly* affect the end."
Gunther says, "just throwing in here that the dog thing is much less unfair than having a slightly "worse" ending"
Gunther says, "er, fair"
Sargent says, "So I fudged. Not doing those puzzles has the possibility of changing some of the text you see in the story."
Sargent says, "I believe not doing the sludge puzzle alone won't have much of a change, but there are a number of other puzzles you can skip, and they have a cumulative effect."
Sargent says, "I think the end result was too subtle, though."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks (of Sarge), "Was kicking the head one of those puzzles?"
Sargent exclaims (at Doe), "I didn't mean for you to END!"
lpsmith chuckles.
Sargent says, "I guess I'll be blatant about this part. Kicking the head wasn't a puzzle."
Thrax asks (of Sargent), "Did you consider actually killing the player, or at least ending the story, if the player didn't deal with the sludge or faeries?"
Sargent says (to Thrax), "I'll address that in a sec."
Sargent says, "I wanted to cover all the potential actions the player might take with the head."
Sargent says, "One of them that I thought of was kicking the head. Hey, it's right there in front of you. Perhaps someone would think of doing that."
Sargent asks, "Originally I was going to disallow it. Then I thought, why?"
Sargent says, "So I implemented it."
Sargent says, "Little did I know that roughly 3/4 of players would kick the head, rather than trying to save it."
lpsmith laughs.
Sargent says (to Thrax), "Switching to your question, I did."
Sargent says, "But you can't really die all that much in Grip."
Sargent says, "You can end the story, but you can't die."
Sargent says, "And I wanted the player to feel that, if they made it to the end, then Terry's journey was going to unroll to its conclusion."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Wait--the avalanche isn't death for the protagonist?"
(From Gunther) Sargent says, "er... look for release 5 soon."
Sargent laughs.
Sargent says, "There are some death points in Grip. I think the avalanche is one."
Sargent says, "But many of the potential death points just kick you back to reality, so to speak."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Did you have kicking/trying to save the head affect the endgame text in any way?"
Sargent says, "No."
lpsmith nods.
Sargent says, "I thought it was too obscure, even for me. (END)"
Thrax raises his hand.
lpsmith asks, "In a post I made, I commented on the changing endgame text. I said something like "If the point is the interplay between the different endings, that point gets lost." Would you agree, or would you say this is something like your choice of hiding half of Fit 2?"
Sargent says, "I would agree with that. If that was the point, then I would have failed at that aspect of the game."
Sargent says, "To my mind, it's like Fit 2. What people see is the story they experience."
Sargent says, "That's antithetical to what gamers tend to like. Gamers want to know what effects their pushing on the game world has."
Sargent says, "I honestly don't know how satisfied I am with the end result. I don't have enough feedback from enough people."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "What would *your* reaction be to playing a game like yours, once you found out about the different endings?"
End of List.
Sargent says, "Somewhat akin to yours. But I'm a gamer."
PollBoy hollers, "lpsmith has changed the poll! My feelings can be best expressed through this bagpipe solo."
Sargent says, "I don't know if I would have admired the effect enough to outweigh any annoyance I'd experienced. I'm too close to the game to tell."
Sargent says, "END"
Sargent says, "(and if you're commenting on #peanut-gallery, I can't see it. Mail me later)"
lpsmith says, "So, you want someone else to do it, so you know how it feels? ;-)"
Sargent exclaims, "Sure!"
lpsmith says, "We have another audience question. Thrax? (assuming an END there...)"
Sargent says, "Yes, sorry. That was an END"
Thrax asks (of Sargent), "If you can avoid canonizing: can you say more about the role of the dog? I.e., what was the idea behind making it the one constant among all the fits?"
Sargent says, "I think I can speak to some of that."
Sargent says, "I wanted a way to tie the story together, something more than the fit/interlude structure."
Gunther has left.
Sargent says, "At the same time, I wanted a companion for Terry on the trip."
Sargent says, "The dog let me fulfill both needs at once."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "Would you say the dog let you fulfil a design decision you alluded to earlier--that of revisiting an unexamined past?"
lpsmith says, "(Er, design goal. Or something.)"
Sargent says, "Yes. The dog is clearly tied into childhood memories, in ways which are Too Complex To Be Elucidated Without Enforcing My Authorial View."
lpsmith grins.
Sargent says, "I'm actually rather proud of the dog. There's a lot you can do with it, and a lot of commands you can give to the dog."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith shuffles his notes.
lpsmith asks, "Going back to puzzles--You told us about a couple puzzles that were separate from the game. Can you walk us through the inspiration/design of a more integrated puzzle? Like, say, the laurel branch and blood?"
Sargent says, "If you don't mind, I'll talk about the faerie puzzles in general."
lpsmith says, "Sure."
Sargent says, "I wanted the faeries in there for symbolic reasons, and wanted them tied to a sub-quest."
Sargent says, "Sub-quests typically involve the collection of objects."
Sargent says, "I'd just played Path To Fortune, which has a number of sub-quests which aren't well-integrated. I was very concerned about that."
Sargent says, "The question I kept asking myself was, "What kind of sub-quest can I have which has more depth than plot coupon collection?""
Sargent says, "(Keep in mind that the faerie sub-quest is, at its heart, just plot coupon collecting. But I wanted it to have meaning above and beyond that.)"
Sargent says, "I hit upon the idea of the dragon pretty soon. Adam Thornton's gripings aside, dragons have certain mythic overtones, as do faeries."
lpsmith chuckles.
lpsmith says, "(I'm still waiting for a dragon to win best NPC at the XYZZYies. I actually think it relatively likely.)"
Sargent says, "And I really wanted to emphasize the otherworldliness of faeries. Some people tend to view faeries as, literally, little people. My conception of them has always been that they are much more alien than that, and are completely unlike us."
Sargent says, "I ended up pitting two myths against each other. Faeries versus dragons."
Sargent says, "Thank goodness Grip was released before Once and Future, is all I can say about that."
lpsmith chuckles.
Sargent asks, "What would the dragon have that the faeries would want? Well, what are the famous characteristics of dragons?"
Sargent says, "I made a list. Scales, claws, treasure, fire. I started toying with the dragon's fire."
Sargent says, "I decided the faerie wanted the dragon's fire, or a bit of it, captured. I then wanted a way that only a mortal could get the fire, and not a faerie."
Sargent says, "That's when I hit on the wards. It's an ongoing theme in faerie literature: some object that has magic protection."
Sargent says, "The king, of course, isn't going to tell you about it. He likes light, but he also likes the idea of crisped children."
Sargent says, "That let me bring in a sympathetic outsider, and gave me plot coupons."
Sargent says, "The plot coupons, the wards you had to collect, let me bring in other aspects of mythology. The power of stone and running water, the ash and oak as faerie trees, etc."
Sargent says, "And I tried to tie each aspect to Terry's life somehow."
lpsmith says, "Huh."
Sargent says, "So the ash circlet needs to be primed by blood, and that leads to Terry's dad."
Sargent says, "Granted, not all of the items are direct tie-ins. The boots, for instance."
Gunther says, "they are for kicking the head"
lpsmith adds to the canon "The boots are Not Symbolic"
Sargent says, "But everything grew out of me wanting to tie things on the one hand to faeries, and on the other hand to Terry's life."
Sargent exclaims (at lpsmith), "Aiee! Stop that!"
Jota adds to the canon, 'The Symbolism of the Boots was Subconscious on the Part of the Author'.
Sargent says, "I like the tree puzzle. It let me bring in an element of Terry's life (the bully), involve the dog, and tie it to Terry's dad."
Gunther adds to the canon, "The Dark Sphere is a 'Sphere' rip-off"
Sargent says, "That's why I think the puzzles in Fit 3 work like they do. I had all of these elements lying around, and I started playing connect-the-dots with them."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "You mentioned Path To Fortune--were there any other IF games that influenced Grip, whether by example or counter-example?"
Sargent says, "John's Fire Witch, for tight puzzle design."
(From Gunther) CEF says, "It's a total DELUSIONS rip-off!"
Sargent laughs.
Lionheart drops plot coupon.
Sargent says, "Path to Fortune, both for the sub-quests and, more positively, for the use of fantasy."
Sargent says, "Curses, because it made me think that a sprawling game might be okay after all."
Sargent says, "END"
Banichi says (to Sarge), "I'm late and not sure if this was covered.."
lpsmith says (to Banichi), "Raise your hand, but go ahead."
Banichi says, "But I became very emotionally involved at the point where the boy is stuck in the duct. It was a tense moment. Everything was happening, timed very well. And things kept getting more tense. The dog with his tail."
Gunther says, "(to jota)"
Gunther says, "ILAC"
Sargent nods.
Banichi says, "And also in the similar situation with the faeries in the cage at the end of fit3. It was excellent to be affected by an if game like this. Just wanted to say that."
Sargent says, "Thanks. It's nice to know that some of what I tried to do worked."
Sargent says, "Especially since timing and rising tension in IF is hard. :)"
Sargent says, "END"
Lionheart raises a hand.
lpsmith says, "Let's talk about probably your most devisive decision--the puzzle with getting objects to other scenes. People seem to object most strongly because of the way it gets the game in an unwinnable state invisibly (or nearly so), and thus requires you to replay a whole swath of the game. What do you have to say for yourself? ;-)"
Sargent says, "Guilty, your honor."
lpsmith chuckles.
Sargent says, "I might have been blinded by the neatness of the puzzle. It struck me as an ever-so-elegant way of handling the problem of between-fit transport."
Sargent says, "I know it's not considered a good thing to do, but I feel like keeping you from getting far in either Fit 2 without stuff from Fit 1 mitigates it somewhat."
Sargent asks, "You don't find out in Fit 5 that, whoops, wouldn't it be nice to have the rope from Fit 1?"
lpsmith says, "Heh."
Sargent says, "I won't reject puzzles that close off the end-game out-of-hand, but in the future I will be more careful with them."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "In what way would you be more careful?"
Banichi raises hand
Sargent says, "I'd put in better clues. The dog was supposed to be very upset if you went outside with the backpack instead of giving it to him/her."
Sargent says, "Due to a bug, that didn't happen."
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith says, "oops."
lpsmith asks, "We have a couple audience questions. Lionheart, then Banichi. Lionheart?"
Lionheart says, "Maybe that last bit should've gone to spoilers, heh."
Sargent says, "Nah. I think these things go better if I'm not restricted in what elements of the game I can talk about."
Sargent says, "Well, unrestricted except for self-imposed restrictions."
lpsmith nods.
(From Jota) Gunther curses.
lpsmith says, "One of the tenets of the bookclub is that discussion is much better without spoiler-fear."
lpsmith asks (of Lion), "You still have a question?"
Thrax says (to lps), "LH has been idling for a while."
Thrax says (to lps), "Come back to him, maybe."
Lionheart says, "I thought the experience with faeries coming up again in fit 4 the way it did was well done."
lpsmith says (to Thax), "Heh."
Thrax says (to LH), "Oops. Sorry."
Lionheart says, "You spoke of wanting to have the players decisions influence the outcome of the story later on, and I think that was a good example of how it could be done, though that wasn't an optional scene."
Sargent exclaims, "Thanks!"
Lionheart says, "In one version of fit 4, I should say."
Sargent nods.
Lionheart asks, "Would you like to comment on some of the other ways you wanted to have player decisions change the course of the plot?"
Lionheart sits down.
Sargent says, "I'm not sure quite how to answer that, as most of the clear-cut ways of influencing the plot went out the window early."
Sargent says, "I was going to have player decisions shuttle them to all sorts of different Fits."
lpsmith asks, "Like the two ways of getting to Fit 2?"
Sargent says (to lpsmith), "Right."
Sargent says, "My first plan was to have 2^(n-1) fits each time: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, too darn many..."
lpsmith exclaims, "Yi!"
Sargent says, "You can see why this idea went away quickly."
Sargent says, "I think in the end the story I wanted to tell didn't allow for the extreme player influence I had first envisioned."
Sargent says, "Not the most satisfactory answer, I'm sure. :)"
Sargent says, "END"
lpsmith asks, "One more audience question: Banichi?"
Banichi says, "I raised my hand during the talk about the sack, fit1 and the dog. I wanted to say that I did not know the dog was supposed to be more reactive about the sack. That makes sense now that I heard that."
Sargent says, "It would have made even more sense had it worked. :)"
lpsmith asks (of Sarge), "Did that bug creep into later releases, or was it always there?"
Sargent says, "I'm not sure, to be honest. I haven't gone through my CVS files to see."
Lionheart says, "It did work for me in version 4."
Sargent says, "(It's a localized bug. In some situations it happens; in others it doesn't.)"
Sargent says, "END"
inky raises his hand.
lpsmith asks (of inky), "Yes?"
Banichi exclaims (at Sarge), "You use cvs for source control of your games? Yay!"
lpsmith says, "Er, assuming Banichi's done and stuff."
Banichi says (to lps), "Yes, END"
inky asks, "you mention CVS -- so you use a full source control enviroment for programming?"
Sargent says, "I did for Grip."
Sargent says, "On Magnus's recommendation I got the OS/2 (and later Windows) version of the Unix CVS system."
Sargent says, "I haven't used it as much for smaller projects."
Sargent says, "But for something of Grip's magnitude, it was a life-saver."
Gunther asks, "quickie question: where from?"
Sargent says (to Gunther), "It's been three years since I did that. I'd have to hunt for it again."
inky says, "so it really did help then. huh."
Sargent says (to inky), "In about five instances it let me figure out where I'd introduced a stealthy bug in the game."
Sargent says, "END"
Gunther says, "http://www.sourcegear.com/CVS"
lpsmith shuffles through his notes again.
lpsmith says, "Hmm, I seem to be done."
lpsmith asks, "Well, are there any other questions from the audience?"
Thrax says, "One."
lpsmith says (to Thrax), "Go for it."
Thrax asks (of Sargent), "Any particular lessons you learned from Grip, other than that writing long games is a hell of a challenge?"
Sargent says, "One, I doubt I'll write another game that long."
(From Gunther) Sargent says, "Never, ever implement KICK"
Sargent laughs.
lpsmith chuckles.
Sargent says, "For one thing, I have less free time than I had then. If I tried to write Grip now, it'd take me two or three years to code instead of one."
Sargent says, "For another, I think the potential payoff is less. In some ways you can do more in a short game, and more quickly."
Sargent says, "And you don't put your eggs in one basket."
Sargent says, "Two, if you do write a game that long, focus, focus, focus! Grip feels like a much tighter game than it is because of all the extraneous stuff I threw away."
Sargent says, "It's why I think people found Fit 4 so out-of-place: because they didn't see how it fit in."
Sargent says, "Three, get a good set of beta-testers, and listen to them."
Sargent says, "And budget a *lot* of time for that. I didn't realize how long it'd take everyone but Mike Kinyon to get through the game."
Ryan sets the Sentient Plate of Cookies down on the ground.
inky says, "heh"
Sargent says, "Four, write quickly. The longer you take, the bigger the difference between the quality of the beginning and the end."
Sargent says, "It's what I call the Avalon effect."
lpsmith laughs.
Sargent says, "Five, don't make a game of this magnitude your first IF project."
Thrax nods.
Sargent says, "You don't want to be learning how to program and write IF in something like this. Again, I think Kevin Wilson ran into a lot of this, resulting in Avalon's continual delays."
Gunther asks (of sargent), "couldn't you have told me that 2 years earlier?"
Sargent laughs.
Sargent says, "That's about it, really. END"
Thrax nods again.
lpsmith asks, "So, some stuff you cut would have made Fit 4 more clearly in-context?"
Lionheart hands Sargent a sheaf of bug reports.
(From Thrax) Sargent throws the sheaf of bug reports back at Lionheart and runs away.
The Sentient Plate of Cookies raises a cookie in the air.
Sargent says (to lpsmith), "Not really. I can't blame people's reactions to Fit 4 on me getting rid of stuff."
Sargent says (to lpsmith), "I failed to make the connections clear enough, or to prepare the player for what was coming."
Sargent says, "END"
The Sentient Plate of Cookies says, "Sargent, do you prefer chocolate-chip or peanut butter cookies?"
Sargent says, "Chocolate chip."
Banichi says, "If I may speak out-of-turn.. I didn't find fit4 to be that out of context. It had the overtones of the feelings as a child. With the father and also with the bully and the tree. And, of course, the gray man at the end."
inky says (to Ban), "that's fit 3"
Sargent says (to Banichi), "There were a number of people who thought it fit. And zarf had a field day with the math side."
Banichi says (to inky), "Oops. hehe, nevermind."
Sargent says (to Banichi), "Whoops, inky's right."
Banichi says, "yeah, yeah, ok, I'll just talk to the cookies."
inky says, "'cause the pie ain't listenin'"
lpsmith chuckles.
lpsmith asks (of Sarge), "'field day'?"
lpsmith asks (of Sarge), "Like, good or bad?"
Sargent says, "Like, good."
Gunther loses his grippe.
Thrax hurtles to justice at lightning speed.
Sargent says, "His comment to me was, (paraphrasing), "I reached that fit and thought, did you write this personally for me?""
lpsmith grins.
Sargent says, "END"
inky says, "nice."
lpsmith exclaims, "Well, if there are no more questions, let's all thank Sargent for agreeing to be here!"
Jearl applauds.
Jota says, "Thank you, Mr. Sargent."
Lennier applauds
inky says, "yay sarge"
Sargent exclaims, "You bet. It's been fun!"
Thrax applauds.
Gunther applauds!
mcp applauds
Banichi applauds!
Sargent says, "And now I must hurtle to dinner."
Sargent exclaims, "G'night, everyone!"
inky says, "byebye. thanks for being here"
Gunther waves!
Lennier waves!
Jota says, "Yay."
Gunther walks into a wall.
lpsmith says, "And thanks to everyone else, who arrived, and special thanks to those that had questions."
Results from the first poll (I forgot to log the second. Oops!):
User Do you like more-defined or less-defined protags? davec more defined Gunther I like my protagonists well-done Jearl depends on the story, but I'd say 'more'. lpsmith I gotta go with more-defined. Jota Yes, please. Ryan I prefer more-defined.