[Note: I've edited out some of the irrelevant chat in this transcript, as well as re-ordered some of the statements, to make individual conversations a little easier to follow. But otherwise, this is the discussion we had that night when I decided to bring up the topic.]
[Further note: markm wants you to know that his script helped convert the original text transcript of this conversation to HTML. Thanks mark!]
lpsmith says, "So: What makes a game replayable? Let's limit this to adventure games. Also: what games have you replayed, if any, and if so, why?"
aoeu says, "I think the most replayable game I've played was 'Tapestry', which was obviously written to be replayable. Some parts of it were annoying to replay, though."
lpsmith asks (to aoeu), "Did you feel that you wanted to replay it?"
aoeu says (to lpsmith), "Yeah. The first time through I 'corrected' my actions, and it seemed fine, but it advertised replayablility, so I went through and 'continued' my actions, and liked the end better."
Whizzard says (to lps), "Elements that are unessential to winning, and or exclusive to one another."
lpsmith asks (to Whiz), "What do you mean, 'exclusive to one another'?"
Whizzard says (to lps), "See lever example in my guide. ;)"
lpsmith says, "Parallel paths, then, like in Grip."
Whizzard says (to lps), "Yeah."
Whizzard says, "Those are the most two common methods."
Adam says, "The one comp game I tested was replayable for an entirely different reason from any other game I've ever played, but to say why would ruin the game."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "OK. Hold that thought, then--I'll ask you later ;-)"
Adam says, "Time can be a factor. If there are 50 things to try in a given room, but you're only allowed to spend 10 turns there, you'll have to replay it in order to do everything it may occur to you to do. Either that or UNDO a lot."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "So, you're talking about replaying scenes, which is also valid."
Whizzard says (to lips), "Also, some folks advocate random plot elements."
lpsmith asks (to Whiz), "Have you played games with random plot elements?"
Whizzard says, "Nope. Nobody I know of has every actually followed through on the threat."
Whizzard says, "ever"
lpsmith grins.
Whizzard says, "It could prolly be done well (random bits), but I dunno. I don't like the concept."
aoeu says, "I think random plot events would make the game sufficiently annoying that you wouldn't want to replay it, unless there were _many_ random plot branches."
Whizzard says, "I like it when you have the Monkey Island conversations, but the words you pick have an impact. That is nicely replayable to me."
lpsmith asks, "OK, let's take Grip as an example. I've only gotten up to the fourth fit, but I know (at this point) that there was a second fit I skipped. Where/when did (or didn't) the rest of you replay that scene?"
Whizzard says (to lips), "Never did. I liked the splitting paths, hated the restore puzzles, so I quit."
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith asks (to Whiz), "When you replayed MI conversations, did you replay them immediately, or did you just play it differently the second time you played the game?"
Whizzard says (to lips), "Often immediately, until I found out they generally had no effect on the game."
lpsmith nods.
Whizzard says (to lips), "Then I lost interest."
lpsmith asks (to Whiz), "how much of an impact would have kept your interest up? Major plot changes, or even more subtle things?"
Whizzard says (to lps), "Just different dialogue, really."
lpsmith asks, "so if prior dialogue changed subsequent dialogue, you would've been happy?"
Whizzard says (to lps), "Yep. Definitely."
schep has returned from his boring life.
schep asks, "Are you guys talking about games with divergent paths?"
lpsmith says (to schep), "more generally: games you can replay, and why."
schep replays games that don't change at all.
lpsmith pounces. "Aha! Why?"
lpsmith says, "Because I replay the Zorks every now and again, and have great fun. And they're classically static, as DX's friend put it."
schep says (to lps), "For fun, and to catch little odd things the programmer hid."
lpsmith nods.
Whizzard says (to lips), "That's what I meant by unessential elements."
lpsmith says (to whiz), "*nod*"
lpsmith asks (to schep), "Is it fun replaying puzzles, or revisiting the story? Or both/neither/something else?"
Adam says, "Now, in Pantheon (which is scheduled to be released in 2014, so watch for it), conversations you have early in the game can affect what happens later on; the cause-and-effect isn't at all obvious at the time of the conversation, but what you say does have an impact."
lpsmith nods.
Whizzard says (to adam), "I like that. OAF, even with its askabout model of conversation, makes use of that in a few places."
lpsmith asks (to Whiz), "How obvious is it to the player that that is true? After the effect, I mean."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "You too, actually."
Whizzard says (to lps), "Answers change after certain events take place. Not as much as I'd like. I really made the scope of the game way too big."
lpsmith nods.
Whizzard says (to lps), "It didn't allow me to do as much detail as I wanted."
schep says, "At the other extreme, you can make charts of what has to be done for what else, but I haven't really gone quite that far. Timing or move-counting yes."
lpsmith says (to schep), "I'm not following you."
schep says (to lps), "A chart of which puzzles have to be solved before other puzzles. Not really all too exciting."
lpsmith asks (to schep), "But you'd replay a game in order to make such a chart?"
schep says (to lps), "I do that more often in my head, like try to find out exactly why you have to solve such and such in order to win (Curses gets pretty complex this way)."
lpsmith says (to schep), "Ah, I get it."
schep says, "A full complete chart wouldn't be too interesting. But I have tried to minimize moves (and time the total sounds/movies in the graphic Zorks)"
lpsmith grins.
schep says, "I think I got Curses to under 1000 even."
lpsmith says (to schep), "So, if I can broadly categorize what you're talking about, replaying a game to do that would be Replaying for Mastery. You're trying to completely master the game--know all of its ins and outs."
schep acknowledges the categorization.
lpsmith asks (to Whiz), "And the type of replaying you're talking about might be Replaying for Impact? You want to see how you can make a difference in the game?"
Whizzard says (to lips), "Sounds good."
schep says, "I didn't like Tapestry, though. I'm not sure if it was the split-path thing or not, maybe the plot didn't interest me."
Whizzard says (to lips), "When I found the mortar in Wasteland, I saved and blew the hell out of Needles."
lpsmith says, "And possibly replaying so you can see a side-branch you missed would be Replaying for Completion. There was a parallel path you didn't get to see, so you go back to that bit and see what it was like."
Whizzard says, "Sure"
Adam says (to lp), "There's a miniature version of the conversation-affects-later-stuff idea in I-0: if you hurt Larry's feelings in the truck, he'll stop talking, but nothing catastrophic happens right then. Later on, though, Larry won't give you a ride if you've hurt his feelings. At least not initially."
lpsmith asks (to Adam), "That's cool. I wonder how many people noticed. Did anyone mention it?"
Adam says (to lp), "Enh, not that I recall."
Adam says, "How would you categorize something like playing a comedy game a bunch of times to laugh at all the different funny death messages? (cf. Apartment F209)"
schep says (to lpsmith), "I guess I like parallelism at least as far as finding cool ways to die."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "Right; I might put that in 'Completion' as well."
lpsmith says, "Although I don't have to be the only categorizer around here ;-)"
schep asks, "And there's usually one more detail somewhere. hmm, anyone not won Curses (spoiler)?"
Adam says, "I think more spatially oriented games might fit into the Mastery category, perhaps? Like wandering around Rockvil just to get a sense of the place, much as you might check out a new town you've just moved to."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "Sure, that works."
DorianX says, "I would separate replayng to see alternatives and replayign to see missed text"
DorianX asks, "Was repaying for exploration mentioned?"
lpsmith asks (to DX), "What do you mean? Like Adam just mentioned?"
DorianX says, "Yeah, like that"
DorianX says, "I meant, was it mentioned as a category"
DorianX says, "coz it seems like a separate thing than "mastery"
schep says, "for example, last time I played Curses, I accidentally burned the fig before summoning the oracle, then discovered I could use Stalking on the fig tree to get another."
lpsmith says (to schep), "Cool."
schep says, "I still haven't solved that monkey thing."
lpsmith says (to schep), "You can use any food item, actually. Even the cookies (IIRC)."
schep says, "and I thought the biscuit was just a herring."
Adam asks, "Wouldn't a herring biscuit be a muffin?"
lpsmith chuckles.
lpsmith says, "A McMuffin."
lpsmith says, "I'm kind of thinking that replaying to catch missed branches, see funny death messages, and explore the territory fully all kind of come under 'Completion', but perhaps it would do to split that up more."
DorianX says, "Then, of course, you can replay games for the same reason you rewatch a movie or reread a book"
DorianX asks, "Anyone play Sanitarium?"
lpsmith says (to DX), "Right; Perhaps 'Replaying for Experience'. I replay Zork sometimes not to see anything new, but just to relive the fun."
lpsmith says, "And for nostalgic purposes."
Whizzard says (to lips), "Wishbringer is my nostalgia game. I've played it a bunch of times."
lpsmith nods.
DorianX says, "AMFV for me"
DorianX says, "Also the JMP games"
DorianX says, "I recently replayed Phantasmagoria 2, which was fun because it was so clik-to-continue oriented that it was more or less just watching a movie"
DorianX says, "Easter Eggs are a good incentive to replay sometimes"
Adam says, "Hmm. I very very rarely re-watch movies, but of course ofter re-listen to albums. Perhaps that's why I re-play Star Control 2 every so often: I like to be immersed in the music."
lpsmith chuckles as he remembers a review of a Star Trek game: "You could have just as much fun for less money by watching an old episode on tape and periodically hitting the 'pause' button."
DorianX asks (to lp), "which one was that?"
Adam exclaims (to lp), "Ha!"
lpsmith says, "ST: Borg, IIRC."
DorianX says, "borg was released as an audio cassette too"
DorianX says, "it felt to me like after the tape, the game would be no fun"
[inky] What kind of future is this? Where are the undersea farms? Where are the moon colonies? Where are the FOOD PILLS?
Jarb says, "Dungeon....I'd kill for an LA32 that I could use with the game Dungeon. That would be nostalgia"
DorianX says, "It was not a bad story per se"
inky materializes.
schep says, "hi inky"
inky says, "that wasn't forty-ish, but never mind."
inky says, "'lo again"
Jarb says, "hey I"
lpsmith says (to inky), "We're discussing replayability in games. So far we've gotten,...lesse"
DorianX says, "Exploration, Mastery, Alternative paths, Thoroughness, and Just Plain Fun (tm), I think"
inky says, "we aren't supposed to talk about comp games, so I won't."
Jarb says, "It's nostalgic because we were limited. We only got to use the terminals in high school during breaks in classes and we had to share. So you only got to play Dungeon for about 15, maybe 30 minutes at a time. It took us a year to win that game."
schep asks, "Mastery/Thoroughness?"
inky asks, "how much does Mastery come up in IF?"
inky says, "I can see making the distinction between mastery and thoroughness in an action or rpg game or something"
lpsmith asks, "Mastery: Wanting to know every last detail about the game; how few moves can i play the whole game? What's the minimum number of puzzles I need to solve before solving this other puzzle?"
schep says (to inky), "Mastery is one of my big reasons for replay."
inky says, "I'd call that thoroughness"
Jarb asks (to lpsmith), "how long can you use the torch before you _have to_ throw it at the wall of ice?"
DorianX says, "Thoroughness: What does every single NPC know about every single object. What happens if I put the baby iun the blender"
Jarb says, "testing hello sailor in _every_ location"
DorianX says, "I equate thoroughness with "things you'd miss the first time through" anmd mastery with "Weeding out mistakes you made the firsdt time through""
Jarb says, "knowing the maze through to the Cyclops room"
inky says, "hmm"
inky says, "like in quake, I'd call mastery being really good at shooting stuff, and thoroughness as knowing where all the secret areas are"
lpsmith says, "Experience: Not for anything new, but just because you want to enjoy it again. Replaying for nostalgia comes in this category."
Jarb asks, "Mastery: How did you learn about Temple/Treasure - through friends or from the game?"
inky says, "that is, there's some sort of skill you can develop for mastery, and thoroughness is your knowledge about the game"
DorianX says, "Mastery == high kill ratio, thoroughness==high sectet ratio"
inky says, "in IF, there's not really any sort of skill you can develop"
DorianX says (to ink), "Yeah"
inky says, "usually"
DorianX says, "Well, "how few puzzles/moves can I beat the game in""
inky says, "it's not like you have a chance of failing to pick up an object or something"
schep says, "I had the routes to the maze written down, but I think I lost that."
inky says (to DorianX), "yeah, that's true"
inky says, "there's the sort of meta-skill of "game solving""
Jarb says, "I still have a map of Dungeon from 15 years ago"
lpsmith says, "OK, 'Thoroughness' is kinda different from an aspect of 'Completeness' I mentioned before: replaying to catch parallel branches (a la Fit 2 of Grip)"
DorianX says, "Or, how fast can I get through the twisty maze"
Adam says, "As opposed to wiping out the 13 most powerful ships in Starcon II with one Thraddash Torch"
inky says, "I really like having maps of games. I don't know what that falls under"
Jarb says, "I still don't know what all of the cakes are for..."
schep asks (to DX), "eight? (zork1)?"
DorianX says (to lps), "Yeah. Completeness indicates that you _couldn't_ have seen it all the first time through. I take thoroughness to mean "you could have, but didn't""
inky asks, "completeness vs thoroughness?"
Whizzard says (to adam), "Starcon 2's best moment to me is 'Hallelujah!'."
Adam says (to W), "That 'Hallelujah' thing was proof of Pavlov's theory at my dorm. People would go through the most amazing contortions just because at one point it got them three straight resurrections."
Whizzard exclaims (to adam), "Ha!"
Whizzard says (to adam), "My second favorite bit was "AIEEE! *BOOM*""
Whizzard says, "I ought to get a new copy of that game and try to beat it this time."
Adam says, "'If I keep hitting up and right-shift while looking out the window, it'll come back! It will!'"
lpsmith asks, "I haven't played Starcon 2--enlighten me?"
Adam says (to lp), "There's a ship that resurrects sometimes. It's random."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "But people saw patterns where there were none? That's funny."
inky says, "people always see patterns"
Jarb says, "I still remember not being able to breath after the Upper-Half-of-the-Room Cleaning Robot catches the Babel Fish"
Adam says, "As the ship flies back together, there's a 'Hallelujah!' straight outta Beethoven's 9th. (Er, is it Beethoven's 9th?)"
Whizzard says (to adam), "Handel's Messiah, I think."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "No, the 'Hallelujah Chorus' ;-)"
Whizzard says, "I have the CD here somewhere. I use it at appropriate moments in RPGs."
Adam says, "Oh, DUH. I'm thinking of 'Ode to Joy'."
Adam says, "Anyway, I just call 'em as I see 'em."
lpsmith asks (to Adam), "Out of curiosity, does the replayable aspect of that comp game fall into any of the categories we came up with?"
Adam says (to lp), "Not in the slightest."
lpsmith says, "Wow. I can hardly wait ;-)"
schep says (to lps), "I thought of the solution to the dragon only when the wizard cast 'Fireproof!' on me. Later I learned almost the same thing happens otherwise."
lpsmith says (to schep), "For all that he was annoying, the Wizard seems to also have been a way to give hints, albeit in a strange way. I solved the diamond puzzle by wandering around randomly down there while under the influence of 'Ferment!'"
Whizzard exclaims (to lips), "Ha!"
[HairBrain] That's right boys and girls, it's time for the Y'Golonac hand puppet theatre!
HairBrain is back to badger you.
inky says, "hey HB"
schep asks (to lps), "You know the Wizard gives a hint on the diamond maze if you spend a lot of time dropping stuff and moving there?"
lpsmith says (to schep), "No, I didn't. Which is odd, because I did."
inky asks, "did you guys actually list off some replayable games?"
lpsmith says (to inky), "A few. Tapestry, Grip, and the Zorks came up, all for completely different reasons."
lpsmith says, "Well, i guess Tapestry and Grip have similar 'completeness' reasons. (paths you couldn't have taken the first time through.)"
inky says, "yeah"
lpsmith says, "One other thing that came up that I hadn't really considered: You can replay a game your first time through, by replaying scenes and such. Which is different, in a way, from coming back to a game a month later and saying "I think I'll play this again.""
aoeu says (to lpsmith), "Yeah, I replayed parts of curses a few times, not sure if going to places and not doing stuff would mess up the game. I haven't yet finished the game."
HairBrain asks (to lps), "Umm, what exactly do you mean?"
lpsmith says, "Like when you replay Tapestry, you're likely to want to explore the whole thing in one 'sitting'. But if you're replaying your first adventure game you ever played, you come back to it after time has passed."
HairBrain says, "M hmm."
inky says, "yes"
inky says, "I don't usually replay games after I've finished with them"
inky says, "but finishing with them may involve several playthroughs"
lpsmith says (to inky), "Same here."
inky says, "although I did pick up a couple older games and replay them. that was fun."
lpsmith says (to inky), "Right."
lpsmith says, "In late college, just for grins, I replayed all the Zorks. I did zork I in an evening, II the next, and III the next. Then I hit Zero. It took another two weeks."
inky says, "heh"
inky asks, "you'd played it before, or no?"
lpsmith says (to inky), "Yes, I had."
lpsmith asks (to inky), "do you re-read books, as a general rule?"
inky says, "oh, yeah, all the time."
aoeu says, "I reread books, too."
lpsmith asks, "Why do you re-read books, and not re-play adventure games?"
inky says, "I think I don't quite play IF for the same reasons I read books, though"
Adam says, "I rarely re-read books from start to finish, but will often pick one up, open to the middle, read some random number of pages, and put it back."
inky says, "ooh, that's weird."
lpsmith says (to Adam), "Interesting."
lpsmith asks, "Do you think there's a way to imbue a book's re-readableness (for lack of a better term) into a game?"
inky says, "mmf. well"
inky says, "IF is partially about puzzle-solving. And there's not really a reason to, say, re-do a crossword puzzle"
HairBrain says (to lps), "Lots of little things that can be done different that change other little things later on."
HairBrain says (to lps), "Monkey 1 did that extremely well."
lpsmith says (to HB), "But that's not true in books."
inky says, "it's also partly about discovery, at least for me"
HairBrain says (to lps), "Hmm."
lpsmith asks (to inky), "But couldn't you say that books are about discovery, too?"
inky asks, "are they?"
lpsmith asks, "Are they not?"
inky says, "I don't really think of them as being like that"
lpsmith asks (to inky), "What do you think ofthem as?"
inky says (to lpsmith), "well, I'm not sure"
lpsmith grins.
inky says, "I read books for stories and characters and ideas and, mm, experiences"
lpsmith asks (to inky), "What do you mean by 'for'?"
Jarb says, "I think I've discovered something in Dune everytime I've read it...except the last time, which is why I haven't read it again"
Adam says (to Jarb), "That's funny."
inky says, "IF is not particularly strong in any of those areas"
inky says, "maybe the "experiences" part"
lpsmith says (to inky), "And, to a growing extent, ideas."
inky says, "somewhat."
inky says, "I replayed the piece of mind sub-ending a couple times"
inky says, "as a forinstance, I'm reading a mystery book right now. It's a series about a monk in the middle ages. So it's interesting because it brings out the medieval experience, and because there's the interest of trying to solve the mystery, and there's the interest of watching the characters do their thing"
inky says, "this isn't one of the books I'd call, mm, transformative"
lpsmith asks (to inky), "'transformative'?"
Jarb says, "Helprin is transformative"
Jarb says, "You learn something about yourself through the main characters trials"
inky says, "I have this thing that I do where I stare at my bookshelf looking for the right book to read to induce a particular mental state in myself"
inky says, "I don't know exactly how it works"
Adam says, "Well, my favorite writer is Priest, and he uses what has come to be known as the Priest Plot. My favorite movie, The Sweet Hereafter, has a Priest Plot."
lpsmith says, "Oooh."
Adam says, "A Priest Plot is one where you're thrown scenes in non-chronological order, and have to figure out what's going on and how the pieces fit together."
Jarb says, "I'm a mood-book reader too - but I stick to certain authors - just picky"
inky says, "hmm"
lpsmith says (to inky), "But wouldn't re-reading a mystery novel be kind of like re-playing an adventure game? The mystery/puzzles have been solved, but there's still the experience of the protagonist putting things together. And the rest of the things you mention could be there too, if skillfully written."
inky says, "yeah"
Adam says, "Atom Egoyan uses Priest Plots a lot -- did in TSH, but moreso in Exotica."
Adam says (to lp), "It used to be James C. Owsley. He changed it to Christopher Priest, then found out there was already a fairly well-known writer named Christopher Priest. So now it's just Priest."
lpsmith nods.
inky asks, "didn't christopher priest do teen romances or something?"
Adam says (to inky), "Christopher Priest is a British SF writer."
inky asks, "duh. I'm thinking of christopher pike, aren't I?"
Adam says, "Yep."
inky says, "anyway. the books that stand up best on re-reading seem to me to be the ones where there's something there besides the story. Like pratchett is great to re-read because he does a lot of foreshadowing and allusions and cross-references to stuff. As well as a lot of jokes you get the second time around"
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith says (to inky), "That's getting to our 'Thoroughness' reason, as well as, possibly, 'Mastery'."
inky says, "I re-read wodehouse a lot because his books are very light but nonetheless very well-constructed and the characters and language is fun"
lpsmith nods.
Adam says, "Right. What I'm getting at is that one of the joys of re-reading Priest's and re-watching Egoyan's stuff is that the second time around (or sometimes not till the fifth) you can pay attention to what's going on in the scene for how it's written/played as opposed to looking for clues."
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith says (to Adam), "That strikes me as being kinda So-Far ish. Once you figure out the puzzles, you can re-play for the imagery, if you missed it the first time."
Jarb says, "I loved the giants in Thomas Covenant - that's why I reread those books. Foamfollower is one of my favorite alltime characters. It's a great name for a giant too"
inky says, "I re-read sayers because the characters are beautiful to watch also. So there's something there besides the story"
inky says, "IF doesn't really have a lot of this"
lpsmith says (to inky), "True."
inky says, "sometimes we have, eg, an exciting revelation, but it's not usually foreshadowed very well"
inky says, "if at all"
lpsmith nods.
Whizzard asks (to inky), "Well, did you replay any of OAF just for fun?"
inky thinks.
inky says, "there are some scenes I liked a bunch, yeah"
inky says, "but they're a hassle to get to again :)"
lpsmith says (to inky), "You can't, as Adam does, simply flip to those pages and re-read ;-)"
inky says, "right"
inky says, "the characters in IF aren't usually very complicated either"
inky says, "Floyd is always cute and that's it. There's no secondary facets that come out if you play long enough"
lpsmith asks (to inky), "If there were, would that be enough to re-play it?"
inky says (to lpsmith), "maybe. I haven't seen any games that do it, really"
lpsmith nods.
inky says, "the sequel to my next game will, somewhat"
inky says, "but that's fairly far off"
inky asks, "have you read ender's game?"
lpsmith says, "Yes."
Jarb says, "good books"
inky says, "that's got what I always think of as the prototypical perfect IF game in it"
Jarb asks, "really?"
inky asks (to Jarb), "yeah, you remember that computer game he plays where he has to kill the giant and stuff?"
Jarb says, "it's been awhile"
Adam says, "OH! I remember the giant."
inky says, "(partly, it's perfect because it avoids the "ask about" vs menus debate by not letting the protagonist talk)"
lpsmith says, "Really? I forgot that bit."
inky says, "it's mentioned incidentally. he doesn't go into the interface very much at all"
HairBrain says, "Isn't Spider and Web supposed to have that, ie not saying anything provides quite a different experience than debating with the interrogator..."
inky says, "but that game has a number of interesting points"
HairBrain says, "I didn't replay it yet so I dunno."
inky says, "it's got a dynamic world"
inky says, "I guess the classic method of IF replayability is to make more paths to explore. But in a sense that's never going to be as effective as book re-readability"
inky says, "since you always end up with a limited number of paths, whereas the things people re-read books for aren't finite"
inky says, "there's some idea of reader connection with the book that forms a synthesis that is the new thing you are reading for"
Whizzard says (to inky), "True, but I think stronger 'fiction' in IF helps a lot."
inky says (to Whiz), "yeah, I expect so"
lpsmith says (to inky), "Right. The 'Experience', for lack of a better term."
Jarb says, "there is less control of pace and emotion in IF....that's why books change for us - because we change, they mean different things to us when we re-read them"
inky says, "ah."
inky asks, "who has less control of pace in IF? the author?"
Jarb says, "yes"
inky says, "hmm"
lpsmith says, "Pacing is important, and it's hard to control in a game, true."
inky asks, "so by keeping more control, books are somehow more flexible?"
Jarb says, "it's rare to capture - the babel fish puzzle is a brilliant example of pace"
lpsmith says, "That's some of what Moriarty was talking about in 'Entrain'."
inky asks (to lpsmith), "was that the lecture you went to?"
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith says, "Of course, he didn't tell us how to acheive it, just that it was important ;-)"
inky says, "heh"
Jarb says, "Infocom's endgames were so tightly controlled - that's why they set the standard"
inky says, "I'm told planetfall has a good endgame"
inky says, "I haven't played it, of course"
lpsmith nods.
Jarb says, "yes - that's one of the ones I was thinking about"
lpsmith says, "Again, though, not as much the second time around. But it worked quite well the first time."
inky says, "ah."
lpsmith says, "In fact, part of the brilliance in the Planetfall endgame is that it *seems* hard, but you actually don't have to re-play it a bunch of times. Playing it through the once is plenty."
Jarb says (to lpsmith), "but it wouldn't have worked without setting you up to believe you might die - and having lost Floyd already, you really didn't want to and you were 'hoping' to see him again. So the endgame was very important - emotionally"
Jarb says, "but that, to me, is the most difficult thing about IF, to setup a scene with flexible patterns that lead to a tightly controlled scene that 'grabs you'"
inky asks, "are we just at a serious disadvantage because we don't have a protagonist we can control?"
inky says, "(we = the author)"
inky says, "it seems like it's much easier to make Bob scared every time he goes through the haunted house than it is to make the player scared"
Jarb says, "there's a fine line - it's the ability of the author to give or take control to/from an NPC - the right amount is the skill part - I don;t think I'm anywhere near that skill - yet"
inky says, "ah, of course it comes back to NPCs."
lpsmith says (to inky), "I think the player is generally willing to work with you, and you have to play to that."
inky says (to lpsmith), "but, still, it's hard ot make the player scared a second time."
lpsmith says (to inky), "One way around that is to make the protag fearless the first time through, and ascribe fear to an NPC. Then the player experiences the fear vicariously."
inky says, "yeah"
Jarb says, "I'm already dealing with that in Cattus Atrox - fear must come from an external source - you can;t write "You are afraid", it doesn't work"
lpsmith nods, though he hasn't played it yet.
Adam says, "Of course, someone -- was it Drone or Steven Marsh? -- says that the fact that we're so reluctant to say 'You are afraid' is *the* problem with IF."
inky says, "hmm"
lpsmith says (to Adam), "I think we come by that instinct honestly, though."
inky asks, "has it been tried before?"
inky says, "there's obviously in static fiction the show-don't-tell rule"
Jarb says, "my betatesters clearly told me to remove all direct acknowledgement of the PC's emotions"
Adam says, "I think the game Lindsay is (slowly) working on characterizes the PC"
inky thinks.
inky asks, "which one is this?"
Jarb says, "they all told me to use location/npc description to do it"
lpsmith says, "For that matter---what inky said. Even in fiction "Bob was afraid" doesn't work as well as "Bob slowly crept through the house, testing every board before entrusting his weight to it.""
Adam says (to inky), "The one with the ninjas"
inky says, "or assassins, or whatever? hmm."
Jarb says, ""As you walk down the fog-filled street, you hear a scream in the distance. A shadow moves through the fog nearby.""
inky says, "mmf"
Jarb says, "a good way around this is if an NPC had the 'job' of telling you what you 'should' feel....that would be interesting"
lpsmith says, "So, to bring this back around, it's important for the author to set things up so that the player can read your text several times with various amounts of foreknowledge, and still appreciate it. That's kind of vague."
inky says, "yes"
lpsmith says, "It's the old room description problem, with a twist."
inky says, "pratchett is great at having characters say stuff that seems innocuous but takes on extra significance in light of later events"
Jarb says (to inky), "and again, Infocom writers were masters at puttin subtle hints in room descriptions for later use"
lpsmith says (to inky), "Right. That's taking the problem and making it work for you, instead of against you."
inky says, "like during a discussion about how magic works, one of the characters says "nobody sticks their hand in fire and don't get burnt", but later on, someone makes a voodoo doll of her, and she uses the sympathetic magic to stick her hand in the flame and remain unharmed as the doll burns"
lpsmith grins.
inky says, "but note this isn't really integral to the storyline (although thematically the psychological rules of magic is a major part of the book)"
lpsmith asks (to inky), "When do you make the connection? When the later event happens, or upon re-reading the book?"
inky says (to lpsmith), "I make it on re-reading. some smarter people make it beforehand."
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith says, "But in either case, it makes the earlier text suddenly re-readable."
inky says, "yes"
inky says, "the book also has a major oz parody that I totally missed out on until the house fell on one of the characters."
lpsmith laughs.
inky says, "(she was a witch, see)"
inky says, "which all comes back to the issue of games being about more than just storyline"
inky says, "so far discarded storyline almost entirely"
lpsmith nods.
inky says, "which is one way to do it, I guess."
lpsmith says (to inky), "But I replayed the opening scene several times to see if I could wring any more meaning from it."
inky says, "s&w had a storyline of you against the inquistor, but then there were also these puzzle sequences"
inky says, "plus there was the thematic connections of the web"
inky says, "and stuff."
lpsmith says, "I wonder if the 'moment' in S&W is recreatable upon a second playing. Have to find out in another month or two."
inky says, "um"
inky says, "parts of it are, I expect"
inky says, "sometimes I read books for the sheer purpose of seeing someone do something that I know they're going to do, and it still makes me say "fuck yeah, kick his ass" or whatever"
lpsmith nods.
lpsmith says (to inky), "I expect S&W will be like that."
inky says, "but there's also an initial moment of surprise and revelation that I don't think you can recapture"
inky says, "on the other hand, there's stuff that becomes clear in retrospect"
lpsmith nods.
inky says, "like the boldface That isn't important"
inky says, "ie, foreshadowing. sort of."
lpsmith says, "Right. Innocuous statements that make sense later."
inky says, "which provides a minor sort of revelation/surprise feeling"
inky says, "so even if you can only get the surprise once per event, you can have multiple events that don't all come up on first viewing"
lpsmith says, "The neat thing about IF (and its greatest potential, I think), is that when I came to the 'moment' in S&W, *I* felt so incredibly smart. It wasn't me, of course, and I *knew* that, but I still felt so dang *clever*."
Jarb says, "I liked Babel a lot from last year's comp - would have been my pick for the winner -"
inky says, "babel had some foreshadowing in it"
inky says, "and a Priest plot"
inky says, ":)"
lpsmith says (to inky), "But with a cheat sheet ;-)"